Joaquin Bernal, World enthusiast, been to 25+ countries, 5 continents
When Margaret Thatcher tried to retain all of Hong Kong under British control, Deng Xiaoping curtly responded that he could have tanks rolling into Hong Kong at any time and that their negotiations were not about whether or not the UK would keep Hong Kong, but about under what conditions it would be returned to China. If he said that to Britain, a fellow nuclear power, UN Security Council member, core NATO member, and great power, how do you think he would’ve treated Portugal if they made the same request about Macau?
当玛格丽特·撒切尔试图保留香港的治理权,使香港继续处于英国的控制之下时,邓小平只是平静地说, 他随时可以让坦克驶入香港,而且他认为这次谈判讨论的不是关于英国是否该归还香港,而是香港该在什么时间回归中国。在他对同为核大国、联合国安理会成员、北约核心成员和世界大国的英国都做出了这样的表态的情况下,你认为如果葡萄牙对澳门提出同样的要求,他会怎么对待葡萄牙呢?
Even if the Portuguese wanted to give Macau independence, that would have never been a practical option. Portuguese technology might have been a defensive benefit when Portugal first acquired Macau in the 1500s, but the 20th century was a completely different case. China was a unified nuclear power with a much smaller technology gap with Portugal than before. Never mind the fact that China had 100 times the population of Portugal and a modernising military. If India kicked Portugal out of Goa in 1961, imagine what China would do in Macau.
即使葡萄牙人想让澳门独立,这也永远不是一个实际的选择。当葡萄牙在16世纪首次租赁澳门时,葡萄牙的军事科技让它面对中国时有一种防御优势,但20世纪的情况完全不同。此时的中国是一个基本实现统一的核大国,它与葡萄牙在军事科技上的差距比以前小得多。中国拥有葡萄牙100倍的人口和现代化的军队。即使是印度都在1961年把葡萄牙踢出果阿邦,想象一下中国会在澳门做什么。
Portugal’s prime minister, Salazar, was like Thatcher. After calls for the city to be returned to China, he was resilient in his belief that Macau was an integral part of Portugal. After his Estado Novo regime fell in 1974, the new government actually reached out to Mao to try and return Macau. They knew the odds were infinitely against them even if they wanted to keep Macau (which they didn’t). Mao actually said it wouldn’t be the right time for Macau to be returned but stressed from then on that Macau was “Chinese territory under Portuguese administration”.
葡萄牙前总理萨拉查像撒切尔夫人一样强硬。在中国呼吁澳门回归中国之后,他坚定了自己的信念,并认为澳门是葡萄牙不可分割的一部分。1974年他的独裁政权倒台后,新政府实际上主动向中国政府伸出了橄榄枝,试图让澳门回归。他们知道,即使他们想要保留澳门(虽然他们并不想),他们也面临着无限的困难。但中国认为那时不是澳门回归的合适时机,但中国从那时起就强调澳门是“葡萄牙统治下的中国领土”。
The last reason is that the vast majority of Macau’s population felt much closer to China than to Portugal. The architecture is deceiving; the lusophone population is minuscule. Aside from the local Macanese + Portuguese who together made up only 5–10% of the population at its highest, Macau had no “national identity” of its own. The Portuguese community kept to itself and there were historically few efforts to culturally imperialise the Chinese population who made up the vast majority of Macau.
This is one of the biggest differences between Hong Kong and Macau. You can see its results today between them. Even though Macau has many beautiful Portuguese buildings, it is at its core very much Chinese. Even though Hong Kong has very few physical traces of British colonialism left, Hong Kongers have been influenced very heavily by the British.
最后一个原因是,绝大多数澳门人感觉与中国的关系比与葡萄牙的关系更亲近。葡萄牙风只是澳门建筑的表象,在澳门讲葡语的人很少。澳门本地的葡萄牙人最多只占澳门总人口的5-10%,澳门人没有自己的“国家认同”。葡萄牙人一直保持沉默,历史上很少有对占澳门人口绝大多数的中国人进行文化同化的努力。
这是香港和澳门最大的区别之一,今天你可以看到他们各自的结果。尽管澳门有许多漂亮的葡萄牙式建筑,但它们的核心还是中国风格。尽管现在的香港几乎没有了英国殖民主义的痕迹,但香港人受到了英国的严重影响。
CaiLei, lives in China (1975-present)
You have to understand that Macau is rented, and must be returned to China when the lease expires!
On July 10, 1928, the Ministry of foreign affairs of the then Chinese government officially notified the Portuguese Minister to China that the treaty had expired on April 28 of that year.
On December 27, 1928, the Ministry of foreign affairs of the then Chinese government published the full text of the newly concluded treaty of friendship and trade between China and Portugal. The new treaty did not mention the Macao issue, which showed that both sides agreed to abolish the "China-Portugal Beijing Treaty.".
In other words, since 1928, the Chinese government has been able to recover Macao at any time.
To let the Portuguese stay until 1999 is nothing more than to let Macau act as an import and export channel between China and the western world.
During the Korean War, Ma Wanqi(马万祺), a wealthy businessman in Macao and chairman of the Chinese people's Political Consultative Conference, purchased a large number of urgently needed medical materials from Macao and abroad, and transported them to the mainland, which effectively supported the Chinese people's Volunteer Army.
你要明白,澳门是葡萄牙租来的,租约到期后就必须归还中国!
1928年7月10日,中国政府外交部正式通知葡萄牙驻华大使,租赁条约将于同年4月28日到期。
1928年12月27日,中国政府外交部公布了新缔结的中葡友好贸易条约全文。新条约未提及澳门问题,但表明双方同意废除《中葡北京条约》。
也就是说,自1928年以来,中国政府随时都可以收回澳门。
让葡萄牙人在澳门留到1999年,无非是让澳门充当中国和西方世界之间的贸易通道。
朝鲜战争期间,澳门富商、全国政协副主席马万祺从澳门及国外采购了大量志愿军急需的医疗物资,运抵了内地,有力地支持了中国人民志愿军。
In 1949, the Chinese government also had the power and the ability to liberate Hong Kong. However, Mao Zedong ordered to stop, not because of any fear of Britain, but to leave a "channel for import and export trade with the western world" for China. You know, Mao Zedong ordered the People's Liberation Army to sink the British warship Amethyst (紫云英号), and the British did not dare to take action.
Therefore, the permanent venue of China Import and Export Fair is located in Guangzhou near Hong Kong and Macao. It has lasted nearly 70 years from 1957 to now.
1949年,当时的中国政府也有权力和能力解放香港。然而,中国下令暂缓解放香港,这不是因为害怕英国,而是为了给中国留下一条“与西方世界进行进出口贸易的渠道”。你要知道,中国曾命令人民解放军击沉英国军舰紫云英号,而英国不敢对此采取行动。
因此,中国进出口商品交易会的永久举办地设在广州,毗邻港澳。从1957年到现在,这个活动已经持续举办了近70年。
Byron Han, lives in China (2021-present)
Because China wanted it so. Back in 1971, China specifically requested that Macau be removed from the UN decolonization list because they didn’t want Macau to become independent. Portugal, after their dictatorship was overthrown in 1974, made numerous offers to return Macau to China which was repeatedly delayed until 1999 so as to not impact the UK-China negotiations over the status of Hong Kong and the adjoining New Territories.
因为中国希望如此。早在1971年,中国就明确要求联合国将澳门从前托管和非自治名单中除名,因为他们不希望澳门独立。1974年葡萄牙的独裁统治被推翻后,新的葡萄牙政府多次提出要将澳门归还中国,但这一进程被推迟到1999年,这是为了不影响中英关于香港及新界问题的谈判。
Samuel Liu, in 97, 15
Portugal did not give Macau independence 1999.
After the Hong Kong 1967 riots, and subsequent Macau unrest. Macau was actually thereafter ruled by the Beijing govt- that’s pre-1970.
1967 Hong Kong riots - Wikipedia
The political climate was tense in Hong Kong in the spring of 1967. To the north of the British colony's border, the PRC was in turmoil. Red Guards carried out purges and engaged in infighting, while the 12-3 incident sponsored by pro-CCP demonstrators erupted in the Portuguese colony of Macau, to the west of Hong Kong, in December 1966.
Despite the intervention of the Portuguese army, order was not restored to Macau; and after a general strike in January 1967, the Portuguese government agreed to meet many of the left-wing demands, placing the colony under the de facto control of the PRC.[5] The tension in Hong Kong was heightened by the ongoing Cultural Revolution to the north. Up to 31 protests were held.[6]
5 Portugal, China and the Macau Negotiations, 1986–1999, Carmen Amado Mendes, Hong Kong University Press, 2013, page 34
6 Hong Kong, C.W Lam and Cecilia L.W Chan, Professional Ideologies and Preferences in Social Work: A Global Study, Idit Weiss, John Gal, John Dixon, Praeger Greenwood Publishing, 2003, page 107
葡萄牙在1999年没有能力给与澳门独立地位。
1967年香港骚乱和澳门骚乱之后。此后,澳门实际上已经是由中国政府统治了——那是在1970年以前。
1967年香港暴乱-维基百科
1967年春天,香港的政治气氛很紧张。在这个英国殖民地边界的北部,中国陷入了混乱。1966年12月,在香港以西的葡萄牙殖民地澳门爆发了由亲华示威者发起的“12-3事件”。
尽管葡萄牙军队介入,但澳门仍未恢复秩序; 在1967年1月的一次总罢工之后,葡萄牙政府同意满足左翼人士的许多要求,将该殖民地置于中国的实际控制之下,香港的紧张局势因中国大陆的局势变化而加剧,香港人举行了多达31次抗议活动。
Jorge Candeias, studied at Escola Secundária Manuel Teixeira Gomes
I see many ignorant replies to this question, which is in itself also deeply flawed in its basic premises. People seem to think Macau and Honk Kong are the same and came to be the same way, which couldn’t be further from the truth.
Fact is Macau was always Chinese territory, even though during certain periods of its history Portugal tended to forget that fact (there was even a treaty giving it “perpetual rights” over the territory, signed by the Chinese kind of under duress, in the aftermath of the Opium Wars, but later on both parties chose to ignore that). It came to the possession of the Portuguese as a lease. The Chinese wanted the Portguese there because they could serve as a commercial bridge with the outside world and were good sailors who had proven valuable allies in the fight against the pirates that were all over the South China Sea back then. And the Portuguese wanted to be there as a base of power in the Far East and of trade with China and also Japan after leaving Nagasaki.
我看到许多对这个问题的无知回答,这个问题本身的基本前提也有严重的缺陷。人们似乎认为澳门和香港是一样的,但是,这种认知与事实相去甚远。
事实是澳门一直是中国的领土。即使在特定历史时期葡萄牙倾向于忘记这个事实(甚至有一个条约赋予了它占领该领土的“永久权利”,中国在鸦片战争之后被迫签署的条约,但后来双方都选择忽视这一条约)。它是被租给葡萄牙人的,中国人希望葡萄牙人去那里,因为他们可以充当中国与外界的商业桥梁,而且他们是优秀的水手,在打击当时遍布南中国海的海盗方面证明了他们是中国有价值的盟友。在离开长崎后,葡萄牙人想要在那里建立远东的权力基地以及与中国和日本的贸易基地。
That lease had a time limit: 500 years.
When Portugal got rid of its dictatorship in 1974, decolonization was at the top of the agenda as one of the main drivers of the revolution (if not THE main driver) was the colonial problem and its wars. As a consequence, all Portuguese colonies achieved independence in 1974-1975, except East Timor, because it was invaded by Indonesia, and Macau because the proposals by the Portuguese to hand Macau back to China were refused by the Chinese, for fear of the possible repercussions in Hong Kong. It was agreed that the territory would continue to be administered by Portugal until the issue with Hong Kong was solved but it was also firmly established that the territory was in fact Chinese, reaffirming the terms of the original lease (although it had already expired by then).
And then the issue with Hong Kong was solved, at least in a certain sense, and two years later, as agreed, Portugal finally handed Macau back to the Chinese, putting a close to its imperial era (even though East Timor was still de jure Portuguese at that time, from the point of vue of both the Portugese and the Timorese resistance against the Indonesian occupation, and had to wait three more years to be free).
So independence was never even a consideration. As the territory was ever Chinese, only the Chinese could give it independence (in theory the Macanese could have fought for it and achieved it, but that’s only theory).
租约的有效期限: 500年。
当葡萄牙在1974年摆脱了独裁统治时,非殖民化是葡萄牙新政府议程中的重中之重,因为殖民问题及殖民战争是葡萄牙人发动这场革命的主要驱动力之一(如果不是全部驱动力的话)。结果,除东帝汶外,所有的葡萄牙殖民地都在1974-1975年获得了独立,东帝汶未独立的原因是它被印度尼西亚入侵了。澳门则是因为葡萄牙人提出的将澳门归还中国的建议被中国拒绝了,原因是担心这一事件会在香港引起反响。双方同意,该领土将继续由葡萄牙管理,直到中国与英国关于香港的谈判问题得到解决,但双方也坚定地确认,该领土实际上是中国的,重申了原始租约的条款(尽管当时租约已经到期)。
然后,香港的归属问题在某种意义上得到了解决,两年后,按照协议,葡萄牙最终将澳门交还给了中国,结束了它的帝国主义时代(尽管当时东帝汶在法理上仍然是属于葡萄牙的,从葡萄牙和东帝汶对印尼占领的抵抗的角度来看,东帝汶人不得不再等三年才获得了真正的自由)。
所以澳门的独立从来没有被考虑过。因为这片领土曾经是属于中国的,只有中国才有权利让它独立(理论上,澳门人可以为它而战并实现它,但这只是理论)。
Paul Clifford, former System Specialist / ApplicatioArchitext / Designer (1981-2004)
Neither the British, Portuguese nor Japanese imperialists had any legitimate claim to the territories they occupied in China by force of arms since the end of the 19th century. The PRC could have used force to reclaim them, however, chose not to do so, waiting until the British lease over what the British called “the New Territories” expired in 1997 making the British colonies unsustainable and with them Macau..
The Reality is that neither Hong Kong, Kowloon nor Macau were/are sustainable as independent nations. They are totally dependent on mainland China for their food, water, power and employment. The only aspect they can self sustain is the effluent they spew into the ocean and air.
英国帝国主义、葡萄牙帝国主义和日本帝国主义对他们自19世纪末以来用武力占领的中国领土都没有任何合法要求的权利。中国本可以使用武力收回它们,但是,它选择不这样做,直到英国在所谓的“新界”的租约于1997年到期,这使香港不能再以英国殖民地的身份存在下去,澳门也一样。
现实是,香港、九龙和澳门作为独立国家都是不能维持生存的,它们完全依赖于中国大陆的食物、水、电力和人员供应。他们唯一能自我掌控的就是他们向海洋和空气中排放的污水。
Ruby Tsao, National Taiwan University, BA; University of Michigan, MA;
Macau was leased to Portugal and the lease expired. Macao depended on mainland for fresh water, food…. like Hong Kong. Macao has benefitted greatly since its return to China in 1999. The following is excerpt from my book JOURNEY TO CHINA:
Macao enjoys growth of business in high tech industry, tourism, and as international conference center. It is estimated that 40 million tourists visit Macao every year, or 47 times Macao’s population. Per capita GDP has increased to US $ 87,000, the highest in Asia, second highest in the world.
澳门是被租给葡萄牙的,租约到期就得归还。澳门依赖于大陆的淡水和食物供应....像香港一样。澳门自1999年回归祖国以来,已获益匪浅。以下内容摘自我的《中国之旅》一书:
高新技术产业、旅游业、国际会议中心地位发展迅速。据估计,每年有4000万游客到访澳门,这相当于澳门人口的47倍。澳门的人均国内生产总值达到8.7万美元,居亚洲第一、世界第二。
Macao was leased to Portugal in 1557 as a trading port. It was returned to China when the lease expired in 1999. It is also a SAR (Special Administrative Region) in “One Country Two Systems” with autonomy. Today, Macao is the favorite gaming city for the Chinese people. It’s a gaming capital in Asia with the world’s highest gaming revenue and plenty of hotel rooms. Venetian Casino Hotel has a longer canal in Macao than in Las Vegas. And the whole canal with gondolas is on the second floor. With a population of 651,000, 95% Han Chinese, Macao is one of the richest cities in Asia. In 2009, Macao started infrastructure building on the island of Hengqin 横琴near Zhuhai. This 106 sq. km island has greatly increased Macau’s space for expansion of the University of Macao, building of an innovation park and state of art residential communities. As a part of Greater Bay Area development, Macao is connected to mainland China by a bridge. Macao can be reached from Hong Kong by a ferry, a most delightful cruise. Free shuttles to casinos are available at the terminal. This is a worthwhile side trip from Hong Kong.
澳门在1557年租给葡萄牙作为贸易港口。1999年租约到期后,它被归还给了中国。它也是“一国两制”政策实施下成立的特别行政区,享有自治权。今天,澳门是中国人民最喜爱的博彩城市。它是亚洲的博彩业之都,拥有全球最高的博彩业收入和充足的酒店客房。威尼斯人赌场酒店在澳门有一条比它在拉斯维加斯的酒店更长的小型河道,整条河道和贡多拉(威尼斯特色划船)都在酒店二楼。澳门人口65.1万,95%是汉族人,它是亚洲最富裕的城市之一。2009年,澳门开始在珠海附近的横琴岛上建设基础设施,这个岛面积106平方公里。这位为澳门大学的扩建、创新园的建设和最先进的居住社区建设提供了广阔的空间。作为大湾区建设的一部分,澳门与中国大陆之间有一座桥梁。从香港可以乘坐渡轮到达澳门,这是一种最令人心情愉快的游轮,终点站还提供免费前往赌场的班车。这是一次值得从香港来的顺道旅行。
The Hong Kong-Zhuhai-Macao Bridge, the longest cross sea bridge spanning 55 km, connects Hong Kong, Zhuhai and Macao over land and sea. The technically difficult part is the 29.6 km span of bridge, island, and 5.6 km of undersea tunnels. The Century project has over 1000 patents. The Bridge shortens the distance from Hong Kong to within 3 hours commuting radius, bringing Hong Kong to the doorstep of China’s major industrial and commercial cities; it enhances the attraction of PRD as a trade and logistics hub to inner mainland cities. The connection also helps in the cultural integration of Hong Kong and Macao to mainland China.
港珠澳大桥是世界上最长的跨海大桥,全长55公里,连接着香港、珠海和澳门三座城市。这项工程技术上的难点是要建设跨越29.6公里的桥梁和5.6公里的海底隧道。这项世纪工程产生了1000多项专利。大桥将香港与大陆的主要工商业城市的距离缩短至3小时车程以内; 加强了珠三角地区作为内地贸易和物流枢纽的吸引力。这种联系也有助于香港和澳门与中国内地的文化融合。
The Pearl River Greater
Bay Area has overtaken Tokyo as the largest urban area in size and population.
With eleven cities including Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Zhuhai, Dongguan, Foshan,
Humen, Jiangmen, Huizhou, Zhaoqing, and Hong Kong and Macao, the population is over 120 million, more people than Canada, Argentina or Australia.
珠三角城市群在面积和人口上已经超过了东京,成为了世界上最大的城市群。
它拥有深圳、广州、珠海、东莞、佛山、虎门、江门、惠州、肇庆、香港和澳门,人口超过1.2亿,比加拿大、阿根廷或澳大利亚的人口还要多。
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网友讨论:为什么葡萄牙选择将澳门交给了中国?
Why did the Portuguese give Macau to China instead of giving it independence?
2022-04-23
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美版知乎上各国网友讨论起了葡萄牙将澳门归还中国这一事件的前因后果,并纷纷表达了自己的看法,感谢观看!
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Francisco H. da Silva
There is an interesting and thought provoking occurrence back in 1975 or 1976. Some of the then Portuguese military revolutionary lunatics went to China to discuss the “decolonization” of Macau and its return to Beijing. The Chinese authorities said plainly but firmly: “You must be mistaken. Macau is not and has never been a colony. It is Chinese territory that we allowed to be administered by Portugal. That’s it. We have all the time in the world to discuss and negotiate its full return to the homeland. We are open to all your initiatives, but make no mistake about it it is not a colony”. After that when we had a proper government and not a gang of demented military ignoramus we negotiated on realistic terms with Beijing and the end result (that is the final deal) was much better than what the Brits got with Hong Kong. I must add to make things clear that Chinese government or the CCP never threatened us in any way. They didn’t have to.
在1975或1976年发生了一件有趣且发人深省的事情。一些当时的葡萄牙军事革命狂人来到中国,要和中国政府讨论澳门的“非殖民化”和澳门回归北京的问题。中国当局坦率但坚定地说:“你肯定弄错了,澳门不是殖民地,从来都不是。这是我们允许葡萄牙管理的中国领土,就是这样。我们有的是时间来讨论和谈判让它完全回归祖国的时间,我们对你们的所有倡议都持开放态度,但不要搞错,它不是一个殖民地。”在那之后,当我们有了一个像样的政府,而不是一群精神错乱的军事无知分子组成的政府时,我们与北京就现实条件进行了谈判,最终结果(那是最终协议)比英国人就香港问题和中国达成的协议好得多。我必须补充说明的是,中国政府从未以任何方式威胁过我们,他们也不需要这么做。
Paruchuri S Prasad
Salazar was reluctant to grant independence to Goa. The Portuguese even started killing protestors. Eventually in 1961, India rolled out tanks literally and kicked out the Portuguese. Salazar wanted to go to war with India and invoke the NATO code for this. Egyptian strongman Nasser, who was a friend of Nehru, refused passage for Portuguese navy through the Suez. Eventually, Salazar had to eat crow and leave Goa to India.
萨拉查不愿让果阿邦独立。葡萄牙人甚至开始杀害抗议者,最终在1961年,印度将坦克开进了果阿邦,并把葡萄牙人赶了出去。萨拉查想要和印度开战,并想得到北约的军事援助。埃及强人纳赛尔是尼赫鲁的朋友,他拒绝让葡萄牙海军通过苏伊士运河。最终,萨拉查不得不忍让,承认了果阿脱离葡萄牙加入印度的事实。
Mikhail Carvalho
I think you left out the part where the Goans didn't want to be under Indian rule
我想你漏掉了果阿人不想被印度人统治的部分。
Paruchuri S Prasad
The Goans were basically Konkani and their culture was Indian. The Catholics and the Portuguese-Indians did not want to join India, for obvious reasons. But, it was inevitable that Goa would eventually join India. When the British and French vacated India, there was no justification for Portuguese holding of to Goa.
果阿人基本上是康卡尼人,他们的文化是印度文化。果阿的天主教徒和葡萄牙裔印度人不想加入印度,原因很明显。但是,果阿最终加入印度是不可避免的。当英国和法国撤出印度时,葡萄牙没有理由继续占据果阿。
Daniel Moura Marques
Your answer may need some verification regarding some of the facts you mention. I wont go into that. I’d have to consider the spirit behind it to be respectful or appropriate. In any case, my cristicism (which I think is justified) is to the overhall dismissive tone and absolutely unecessary condescedence you use. You may think the World is divided between countries that can use threat and can use use force and those who cannot do neither. Usually that kind of argument is quite far away from Culture as a value and criteria for political action.
你的回答可能需要对你提到的一些事实进行一些验证,我就不细说了。我认为关于澳门的谈判背后的精神是相互尊重的。在任何情况下,我的批评(我认为是有道理的)是在大厅里轻蔑的语气和绝对不必要的屈尊俯就。你可能认为世界上有两种国家,一种是可以对之使用威胁和武力的国家,另一种是两者都不能施为的国家。通常这种观点和进行政治活动需要遵循的价值和标准相距甚远。
As far as Portugal is concerned, the use of force had never been an option nor a argument to retain Macau, if for no other reason for the fact that Macau was never imposed on China. That piece of land was first authorized and then rented as base for commerce between China and the rest of the world and particularly Japan, the portuguese acting as brokers. That fact makes your speech (diatribe) fundamentally flawed. The Portuguese never waged war on China nor imposed by cannons the heinous Opium trade. The fact is notwithstanding being a communist regime, the Chinese are quite knowledgeable and savy about their History and do tend to treat better those that never took advantage of their darker periods. It perhaps because of that the hand over of Macau was agreed under a formal treaty signed between the two countries in 1989 and scheduled for two years after the hand over of Hong Kong with a nice and respectful cerimony with the presence of both Presidents.
China is a millenar country and every detail is important,
The power to respet others and build bridges must be the power to foster, in a time and age where is a groing awareness to the importance of respect as basis for peace.
This particular soft power may also be considered good Diplomacy
就葡萄牙而言,使用武力从来都不是它保留澳门的一种选择,因为它从未被中国赋予澳门的主权。那块土地先是被中国批准允许葡萄牙人居住,然后又被葡萄牙人租用的,它成为了中国和世界其他地区,特别是与日本之间的贸易中转站,葡萄牙人充当了中间人。这一事实使得你的言论(谩骂)从根本上是有缺陷的。葡萄牙人从未对中国发动战争,也没有用大炮进行令人发指的鸦片贸易。事实上,尽管中国现在是一个共产主义政权,中国人对他们的历史也非常了解,而且倾向于更好地对待那些从未利用过他们黑暗时期的人。而且澳门的移交是在1989年两国签署的一项正式条约下达成的,双方计划在香港移交中国后的两年内举行一场双方领导人出席的体面和相互尊重的仪式。
中国是一个千年大国,这个进程的每个细节它都很看重。
在一个国际社会日益认识到相互尊重作为和平基础的重要性的时代,尊重他人和搭建沟通桥梁的意识是每个国家都必须培养的。
这种特殊的软实力也可以被认为是良好的外交政策的基础。
Joaquin Bernal
My apologies if I seemed quite dour in my answer. Of course, Macau was rented to Portugal by China rather being seized in a war as Hong Kong was by the British. But Portugal continued to maintain a defensive garrison throughout the colonial period. At the time of Macau’s creation, this garrison was advantaged technologically compared to Ming China (at least as far as weaponry goes). Modern China, however, had hastened the thinning of this technology gap. In the theoretical world of this question, the Portuguese garrison would undoubtedly have to put up an active defence to aid Macau’s independence from a modernised PLA. Again, this is all hypothetical.
China ultimately views world politics from a theoretically realist perspective, where might does make right in their eyes and where the liberal international order may only be considered if it can be wielded to their benefit. Of course, China has done good things for Macau post-1999 and relations with Portugal have historically been mostly amicable and peaceful.
如果我的回答显得很严肃的话,我表示抱歉。当然,澳门是被中国租给葡萄牙的,而不是像香港是被英国在战争中占领的一样。但是葡萄牙在整个殖民时期一直保持着防御性的驻军。在澳门建立之时,这些驻军在军事技术上比明朝军队更有优势(至少在武器方面)。然而,现代中国加速了这一技术差距的缩小。在这个问题的理论世界里,葡萄牙驻军无疑将不得不积极防御,以帮助澳门从现代化的解放军手中逃脱出来。再说一遍,这都是假设。
中国最终选择从现实主义的角度看待世界政治,在他们眼中强权确实是正确的,自由的国际秩序只有在对他们有利的情况下才会被考虑。当然,中国政府在1999年后为澳门做了很多好事,与葡萄牙的关系在历史上基本上是友好和和平的。
Richard Phillips
The Chinese did not threaten to send tanks into Honk Kong itself - which was British soverign territory in *perpetuity*. They simply said that the New Territories would return to China after the 99 year lease expired - and that this was not negotiable.
Sending tanks into British soverign territory would have been an act of war and the Chinese were not stupid enough to threaten this - notwithstanding that they did not officially acknowledge British soverighnty.
中国人没有威胁要派坦克进入香港——香港是英国永久的主权领土。他们只是说,新界将在99年租约到期后归还中国——这是没有商量余地的。
把坦克开进英国领土将会是一种战争行为,中国人没有鲁莽到威胁到这一点——尽管他们没有正式承认英国对香港的主权。
But they knew that Hong Kong was not *viable* without the New Territories so the only rational decision was for Britain to cede the lot when the lease on the NT expired. All Deng had to do was hold the line that the NT would be re-occupied by China and Britain held no cards at all - it was the economic rather than military threat which mattered.
The Thatcher government only made half hearted efforts to retain HK - and quickly shifted efforts to achieving a settlement that would retain much of the unique status and freedoms of the HK people compared to Chinese mainland.
但他们知道,没有新界,香港就“无法生存”,所以对英国来说,唯一合理的决定就是在新界租约到期时割让这块土地。邓所要做的就是坚持新界必须回归祖国的立场,而英国没有任何筹码——重要的是经济威胁而不是军事威胁。
撒切尔政府在保留香港方面只做了半心半意的努力,并迅速将努力转向达成一项解决方案,与中国大陆相比,该方案将保留香港人的许多独特地位和自由。
原文地址:https://www.quora.com/Why-did-the-Portuguese-give-Macau-to-China-instead-of-giving-it-independence
There is an interesting and thought provoking occurrence back in 1975 or 1976. Some of the then Portuguese military revolutionary lunatics went to China to discuss the “decolonization” of Macau and its return to Beijing. The Chinese authorities said plainly but firmly: “You must be mistaken. Macau is not and has never been a colony. It is Chinese territory that we allowed to be administered by Portugal. That’s it. We have all the time in the world to discuss and negotiate its full return to the homeland. We are open to all your initiatives, but make no mistake about it it is not a colony”. After that when we had a proper government and not a gang of demented military ignoramus we negotiated on realistic terms with Beijing and the end result (that is the final deal) was much better than what the Brits got with Hong Kong. I must add to make things clear that Chinese government or the CCP never threatened us in any way. They didn’t have to.
在1975或1976年发生了一件有趣且发人深省的事情。一些当时的葡萄牙军事革命狂人来到中国,要和中国政府讨论澳门的“非殖民化”和澳门回归北京的问题。中国当局坦率但坚定地说:“你肯定弄错了,澳门不是殖民地,从来都不是。这是我们允许葡萄牙管理的中国领土,就是这样。我们有的是时间来讨论和谈判让它完全回归祖国的时间,我们对你们的所有倡议都持开放态度,但不要搞错,它不是一个殖民地。”在那之后,当我们有了一个像样的政府,而不是一群精神错乱的军事无知分子组成的政府时,我们与北京就现实条件进行了谈判,最终结果(那是最终协议)比英国人就香港问题和中国达成的协议好得多。我必须补充说明的是,中国政府从未以任何方式威胁过我们,他们也不需要这么做。
Paruchuri S Prasad
Salazar was reluctant to grant independence to Goa. The Portuguese even started killing protestors. Eventually in 1961, India rolled out tanks literally and kicked out the Portuguese. Salazar wanted to go to war with India and invoke the NATO code for this. Egyptian strongman Nasser, who was a friend of Nehru, refused passage for Portuguese navy through the Suez. Eventually, Salazar had to eat crow and leave Goa to India.
萨拉查不愿让果阿邦独立。葡萄牙人甚至开始杀害抗议者,最终在1961年,印度将坦克开进了果阿邦,并把葡萄牙人赶了出去。萨拉查想要和印度开战,并想得到北约的军事援助。埃及强人纳赛尔是尼赫鲁的朋友,他拒绝让葡萄牙海军通过苏伊士运河。最终,萨拉查不得不忍让,承认了果阿脱离葡萄牙加入印度的事实。
Mikhail Carvalho
I think you left out the part where the Goans didn't want to be under Indian rule
我想你漏掉了果阿人不想被印度人统治的部分。
Paruchuri S Prasad
The Goans were basically Konkani and their culture was Indian. The Catholics and the Portuguese-Indians did not want to join India, for obvious reasons. But, it was inevitable that Goa would eventually join India. When the British and French vacated India, there was no justification for Portuguese holding of to Goa.
果阿人基本上是康卡尼人,他们的文化是印度文化。果阿的天主教徒和葡萄牙裔印度人不想加入印度,原因很明显。但是,果阿最终加入印度是不可避免的。当英国和法国撤出印度时,葡萄牙没有理由继续占据果阿。
Daniel Moura Marques
Your answer may need some verification regarding some of the facts you mention. I wont go into that. I’d have to consider the spirit behind it to be respectful or appropriate. In any case, my cristicism (which I think is justified) is to the overhall dismissive tone and absolutely unecessary condescedence you use. You may think the World is divided between countries that can use threat and can use use force and those who cannot do neither. Usually that kind of argument is quite far away from Culture as a value and criteria for political action.
你的回答可能需要对你提到的一些事实进行一些验证,我就不细说了。我认为关于澳门的谈判背后的精神是相互尊重的。在任何情况下,我的批评(我认为是有道理的)是在大厅里轻蔑的语气和绝对不必要的屈尊俯就。你可能认为世界上有两种国家,一种是可以对之使用威胁和武力的国家,另一种是两者都不能施为的国家。通常这种观点和进行政治活动需要遵循的价值和标准相距甚远。
As far as Portugal is concerned, the use of force had never been an option nor a argument to retain Macau, if for no other reason for the fact that Macau was never imposed on China. That piece of land was first authorized and then rented as base for commerce between China and the rest of the world and particularly Japan, the portuguese acting as brokers. That fact makes your speech (diatribe) fundamentally flawed. The Portuguese never waged war on China nor imposed by cannons the heinous Opium trade. The fact is notwithstanding being a communist regime, the Chinese are quite knowledgeable and savy about their History and do tend to treat better those that never took advantage of their darker periods. It perhaps because of that the hand over of Macau was agreed under a formal treaty signed between the two countries in 1989 and scheduled for two years after the hand over of Hong Kong with a nice and respectful cerimony with the presence of both Presidents.
China is a millenar country and every detail is important,
The power to respet others and build bridges must be the power to foster, in a time and age where is a groing awareness to the importance of respect as basis for peace.
This particular soft power may also be considered good Diplomacy
就葡萄牙而言,使用武力从来都不是它保留澳门的一种选择,因为它从未被中国赋予澳门的主权。那块土地先是被中国批准允许葡萄牙人居住,然后又被葡萄牙人租用的,它成为了中国和世界其他地区,特别是与日本之间的贸易中转站,葡萄牙人充当了中间人。这一事实使得你的言论(谩骂)从根本上是有缺陷的。葡萄牙人从未对中国发动战争,也没有用大炮进行令人发指的鸦片贸易。事实上,尽管中国现在是一个共产主义政权,中国人对他们的历史也非常了解,而且倾向于更好地对待那些从未利用过他们黑暗时期的人。而且澳门的移交是在1989年两国签署的一项正式条约下达成的,双方计划在香港移交中国后的两年内举行一场双方领导人出席的体面和相互尊重的仪式。
中国是一个千年大国,这个进程的每个细节它都很看重。
在一个国际社会日益认识到相互尊重作为和平基础的重要性的时代,尊重他人和搭建沟通桥梁的意识是每个国家都必须培养的。
这种特殊的软实力也可以被认为是良好的外交政策的基础。
Joaquin Bernal
My apologies if I seemed quite dour in my answer. Of course, Macau was rented to Portugal by China rather being seized in a war as Hong Kong was by the British. But Portugal continued to maintain a defensive garrison throughout the colonial period. At the time of Macau’s creation, this garrison was advantaged technologically compared to Ming China (at least as far as weaponry goes). Modern China, however, had hastened the thinning of this technology gap. In the theoretical world of this question, the Portuguese garrison would undoubtedly have to put up an active defence to aid Macau’s independence from a modernised PLA. Again, this is all hypothetical.
China ultimately views world politics from a theoretically realist perspective, where might does make right in their eyes and where the liberal international order may only be considered if it can be wielded to their benefit. Of course, China has done good things for Macau post-1999 and relations with Portugal have historically been mostly amicable and peaceful.
如果我的回答显得很严肃的话,我表示抱歉。当然,澳门是被中国租给葡萄牙的,而不是像香港是被英国在战争中占领的一样。但是葡萄牙在整个殖民时期一直保持着防御性的驻军。在澳门建立之时,这些驻军在军事技术上比明朝军队更有优势(至少在武器方面)。然而,现代中国加速了这一技术差距的缩小。在这个问题的理论世界里,葡萄牙驻军无疑将不得不积极防御,以帮助澳门从现代化的解放军手中逃脱出来。再说一遍,这都是假设。
中国最终选择从现实主义的角度看待世界政治,在他们眼中强权确实是正确的,自由的国际秩序只有在对他们有利的情况下才会被考虑。当然,中国政府在1999年后为澳门做了很多好事,与葡萄牙的关系在历史上基本上是友好和和平的。
Richard Phillips
The Chinese did not threaten to send tanks into Honk Kong itself - which was British soverign territory in *perpetuity*. They simply said that the New Territories would return to China after the 99 year lease expired - and that this was not negotiable.
Sending tanks into British soverign territory would have been an act of war and the Chinese were not stupid enough to threaten this - notwithstanding that they did not officially acknowledge British soverighnty.
中国人没有威胁要派坦克进入香港——香港是英国永久的主权领土。他们只是说,新界将在99年租约到期后归还中国——这是没有商量余地的。
把坦克开进英国领土将会是一种战争行为,中国人没有鲁莽到威胁到这一点——尽管他们没有正式承认英国对香港的主权。
But they knew that Hong Kong was not *viable* without the New Territories so the only rational decision was for Britain to cede the lot when the lease on the NT expired. All Deng had to do was hold the line that the NT would be re-occupied by China and Britain held no cards at all - it was the economic rather than military threat which mattered.
The Thatcher government only made half hearted efforts to retain HK - and quickly shifted efforts to achieving a settlement that would retain much of the unique status and freedoms of the HK people compared to Chinese mainland.
但他们知道,没有新界,香港就“无法生存”,所以对英国来说,唯一合理的决定就是在新界租约到期时割让这块土地。邓所要做的就是坚持新界必须回归祖国的立场,而英国没有任何筹码——重要的是经济威胁而不是军事威胁。
撒切尔政府在保留香港方面只做了半心半意的努力,并迅速将努力转向达成一项解决方案,与中国大陆相比,该方案将保留香港人的许多独特地位和自由。
很赞哦! ()