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铁幕正在欧洲卷土重来，尽管东侧的地区变得更少（一）
[OC]The Iron Curtain is returning in Europe,altough fewer regions are now on its Eastern side
2022-04-09
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译文简介
然而只有俄罗斯和白俄罗斯，不是真正的铁幕。
正文翻译
铁幕正在欧洲卷土重来，尽管东侧的地区变得更少
评论翻译
Alkit777
It's just Russia and Belarus though, not really an iron curtain
然而只有俄罗斯和白俄罗斯，不是真正的铁幕。
MaterialCarrot
Rusty curtain.
生锈的帷幕。
EmperorThan
Does Pornhub even allow that?
P站上会有嘛？
NoWingedHussarsToday
Don't kink shame!
别为自己的性品味害羞嘛！
doctorctrl
What if kink shaming is my kink ?
如果他的性品味也是我的性品味呢？
NoWingedHussarsToday
I won't shame you for it.
我不会因你的而羞耻的。
tghjfhy
And then there's the small self governed area in Moldova. Can't think of it's name off the top of my head
摩尔多瓦还有一小片自治地区。我一时想不起它的名字。
esn111
Transnistria
德涅斯特河沿岸
tghjfhy
Thank you
谢谢
Connect-Speaker
They refer to themselves as Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic, but Transnistria is easier to remember
他们称自己为普里德涅斯特罗摩尔多瓦共和国，但德涅斯特河沿岸更容易记住。
guido_lois
It’s shown in red if you zoom in a bit.
如果你放大点，它也是红色的。
tghjfhy
Yeah that's why I mentioned it
是啊，这就是为何我提到它。
WinstonSEightyFour
But… the name is there, you didn’t need to think of it off the top of your head.
但是……图上有名字啊，你没必要自己去想。
tghjfhy
Do you not realize some of us are stupid
难道你没意识到我们有些人很蠢嘛？
WinstonSEightyFour
/笑哭
an_undecided_voter
And Hungary
匈牙利也算在铁幕里。
Harsimaja
Orban has strong disagreements with the rest of the EU and isn’t being as helpful over Ukraine… but Hungary is literally in both NATO and the EU. And definitely prefers its Visegrád mates over Russia…
欧尔班（匈牙利总理）与欧盟其他国家存在强烈分歧，在乌克兰问题上也没有什么帮助，但匈牙利实际上是北约和欧盟成员国。
而且绝对比俄罗斯更喜欢它的维谢格拉德集团的伙伴（成立于1991年，包括波兰、匈牙利、杰克和斯洛伐克，亦称V4）
videki_man
with the rest of the EU and isn’t being as helpful over Ukraine…
As much as I hate Orban (him being the sole reason I left my country), we took half a million Ukrainian refugees and the government condemned the Russian invasion and signed all EU sanctions.
尽管我讨厌欧尔班(他是我离开祖国的唯一原因)，但我们接纳了50万乌克兰难民，并谴责俄罗斯的入侵，并签署了所有欧盟制裁。
Aneke1
About 2 weeks ago Russia specifically named Hungary among some other countries and said that they "have plans" against us.
I can confirm that no one here is pro russian anymore, though many continue to not be pro Ukraine. They say it's not our fight, so we should stay out of it.
大约两周前，俄罗斯特别提到匈牙利和其他一些国家，并说他们有对抗我们的“计划”。
我可以确认，这里已经没有人亲俄罗斯了，尽管很多人仍然不亲乌克兰。他们说这不关我们的事，所以我们不应该插手。
Ironfist85hu
Those "no-ones" just got 135+1+7 places in a 199+1 slot parliament.
你所谓的“没人”指的是200个议会席位中有143个都站在俄罗斯一边。/笑
jothamvw
Wait, 143 out of practically 199? That's almost a supermajority. Awful.
I really shouldn't be going on holidays to countries where there's a major election happening days before I arrive.
I was on the boat to Newcastle when the 2017 UK election results came in, the Grenfell tower fire happened while I was in the UK, and now the Hungarian election results on the day before I get on my train to Budapest...
等等，199中有143个席位？那几乎是绝对多数。糟糕。
我真的不应该去那些在我抵达前几天就有重大选举的国家度假。
2017年英国大选结果出来的时候，我在去纽卡斯尔的船上，格伦费尔塔发生了火灾，现在在我坐火车去布达佩斯的前一天，匈牙利选举结果又出来了……
Tryoxin
135+1+7 places in a 199+1 slot parliament
Well colour me confused and intrigued. Why +1+7/+1? Why is it not just 143/200? Are those +Xs special permanent seats or something?
让我感到困惑和好奇。为什么要+1、+7？为什么不是143、200?
这些是特别席位还是什么？
blue-footed_buffalo
Parliamentary systems usually have a coalition of parties forming the ruling government. In this case Mi Hazank (“My Our Homeland”, an extreme far right party) picked up seven seats. Since they’re part of the coalition they can generally be counted on to vote with Fidesz, but not all the time. So, if a bill is voted on by party line, it’s 135 Fidesz votes + 7 Mi Hazank votes + whoever that last vote is.
议会制通常由政党联盟组成执政政府。在这种情况下，米哈扎克(Mi Hazank意为“我们的祖国”，一个极右翼政党)获得了7个席位。由于他们是联合政府的一部分，他们通常可以被指望与青民盟（FIdesz）一起投票，但并非总是如此。所以，如果一项法案是根据党派路线进行投票的，它是135票+ 7张米哈扎克票+最后不知道哪个的1票。
down_up__left_right
We'll see what happens now that the election is over.
"We will remember this victory until the end of our lives because we had to fight against a huge amount of opponents," Orban said, citing a number of his political enemies including the Hungarian left, "bureaucrats" in Brussels, the international media, "and the Ukrainian president too -- we never had so many opponents at the same time."
Russian President Vladimir Putin congratulated Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban on Monday after his party won a fourth term in office and said he hoped to further build ties, the Kremlin said.
"The head of the Russian state expressed confidence that, despite the difficult international situation, the further development of bilateral ties of partnership fully meets the interests of the peoples of Russia and Hungary," the Kremlin said in a statement.
现在选举结束了，我们就等着瞧吧。
欧尔班说:“我们将铭记这场胜利，直到生命的尽头，因为我们必须与大量的对手战斗。”他列举了他的一些政敌，包括匈牙利左派、布鲁塞尔的“官僚”、国际媒体，“还有乌克兰总统——我们从来没有在同一时间有这么多对手。”
克里姆林宫称，俄罗斯总统普京周一祝贺匈牙利总理欧尔班，并表示他希望进一步加强与匈牙利的关系。“
俄罗斯国家元首表示，尽管国际形势艰难，但进一步发展双边伙伴关系完全符合俄罗斯和匈牙利人民的利益，” 克里姆林宫在一份声明中说。
Cautious_Hornet_9607
Serbia and Hungary seem headed in that direction though, judging from their elections.
从他们的选举来看，塞尔维亚和匈牙利似乎正朝着这个方向前进。
Comment dexed by user
realnrh
I've seen a number of pictures of Putin T-shirts and Z logos for sale in Serbia, and a lot of articles noting that significant percentages of Serbians continue to insist that Serbians were not involved in any of the massacres and war crimes. Nationalist deliberate misinformation will keep generations convinced that the bombings were unjustified.
我看到许多普京T恤和Z标志的图片在塞尔维亚出售，许多文章指出，相当大比例的塞尔维亚人继续坚持塞尔维亚人没有参与任何屠杀和战争罪行。
民族主义者故意制造的错误信息会让几代人相信，轰炸是不公正的。
reluctantfrench
Any nation lacking freedom of media is at risk of becoming a Russian puppet state just like Belarus.
任何缺乏媒体自由的国家都有可能成为俄罗斯的傀儡国，就像白俄罗斯一样。
onlyuros
You think your media is free? Only western media tells the truth? Youre a joke
你认为你的媒体是自由的?只有西方媒体说真相?
你是一个笑话。
Taavi00
There is no such thing as "Western media". There is independent media and state-controlled media. The vast majority of "Western" countries do not have government control over media outlets. This doesn't mean there is one single narrative in all Western media outlets. Which in turn means that you get a much more accurate picture following the media in Estonia, Germany or the US than Russia or China.
根本就没有所谓的“西方媒体”，有的是独立媒体和国家控制的媒体。绝大多数“西方”国家没有政府控制的媒体。
这并不意味着所有西方媒体都是一种单一的叙事方式。这反过来也意味着，与俄罗斯或中国相比，你可以从爱沙尼亚、德国或美国的媒体得到更准确的信息。
onlyuros
I don’t agree, the “more accurate picture” coming from US is in my opinion the most distorted one. The fact its not owned per say by the state does not mean its not controlled by it in one way or another.
我不同意，在我看来，来自美国的“更准确的描述”是最扭曲的。
事实上，它不属于国家所有，并不意味着它不受国家某种方式的控制。
Taavi00
Judging from you're post history you come from Serbia, a very friendly state to Russia. So your viewpoint isn't exactly neutral in this matter.
Of course media is controlled by someone, it's a business after all, a business run by people. But different media outlets often have different coverage and they target different audiences. The coverage of the war in Ukraine by Fox News is vastly different than that of the CNN. There is no such thing as a unified Western viewpoint.
从你的评论历史来看，你来自塞尔维亚，一个对俄罗斯非常友好的国家。所以你对这件事的看法并不是完全中立的。
当然，媒体是被人控制的，毕竟这是一门生意，一门由人经营的生意。但不同的媒体通常有不同的报道，他们针对不同的受众。福克斯新闻对乌克兰战争的报道与CNN截然不同。这里没有统一的西方观点。
onlyuros
Different in what way? Does Fox say Russia is right? Nato is getting too close and arming countries next to Russia?
I believe they are just two sides of the same coin, Fox existing just to be laughed at when a different narrative is presented.
哪门子的不同？福克斯说俄罗斯是对的吗?北约走得太近了，没有向俄罗斯旁边的国家提供武器?
我相信他们只是一个硬币的两面，福克斯的存在只是为了当一个不同的故事被呈现时被嘲笑。
Taavi00
All NATO members voluntarily joined the unx because they decided to do so as sovereign countries. Since Russia is the biggest threat to the indpendence of countries in Eastern Europe, it makes perfect sense for NATO to defend its members by providing some assistance in builing defensive capabilities. NATO itself poses no direct threat to the territorial integrity of Russia or to its people. There is no country in NATO that would want to invade the shithole called Russia. The only real threat to Russia's integrity is perhaps China.
When it comes to Ukraine, there are only facts here. Ukraine is a sovereign country which Russia invaded. There is no legal case in international law where Russia's action could be considered justified. BTW, when Ukraine gave nuclear weapons to Russia in early 90s it did so with the promise of territorial integrity. Russia obviously doesn't give a shit about such promises.
Therefore, any independent media outlet would reach the same conclusion.
所有北约成员国都是自愿加入的，因为他们决定以主权国家的身份加入。由于俄罗斯是对东欧国家独立的最大威胁，北约通过帮助其成员国建立防御能力来保护其成员国是完全合理的。
北约本身并没有对俄罗斯的领土完整或其人民构成直接威胁。北约中没有哪个国家会想要入侵这个叫俄罗斯的粪坑。唯一真正威胁俄罗斯领土完整的可能是……
说到乌克兰，这里只有事实。乌克兰是被俄罗斯入侵的主权国家。在国际法中，没有任何法律案例可以证明俄罗斯的行动是正当的。顺便说一下，当乌克兰在90年代初向俄罗斯提供核武器时，它是在承诺领土完整的情况下这么做的。俄罗斯显然对这些承诺不屑一顾。
因此，任何独立的媒体都会得出同样的结论。
Adrian-Lucian
The bombings weren't justified, they were war crimes like the Serbian and Albanian ones.
这些轰炸是不正当的，它们是战争罪行，就像塞尔维亚和阿尔巴尼亚人的一样。
Prosthemadera
This is seriously oversimplifying the situation.
But then, oversimplifying is part of the reason why people killed each other, isn't it?
这严重地将情况简单化了。
不过，过度简化也是人们自相残杀的原因之一，不是吗?
jpbus1
Yep. NATO bombed Serbia for two months straight, destroyed the chinese embassy in Belgrade and even dropped depleted uranium on Kosovo. Can't fight war crimes by comitting more war crimes
是的。北约连续两个月轰炸塞尔维亚，摧毁了中国驻贝尔格莱德大使馆，甚至在科索沃投放贫化铀。
你不能通过犯下更多的战争罪行来打击战争罪行。
Darda_FTW
They safed 2 million peoples lifes. As such, they were clearly justified.
他们保护了200万人的生命。因此，他们显然是有道理的。
realnrh
So attacking a country that is attempting a genocide is not justified? Serbia was murdering people and refused to stop. A sadly large number of modern day Serbs refuse to admit that their country was murdering people in the first place.
所以攻击一个试图进行种族灭绝的国家是不正当的?塞尔维亚正在屠杀人民，并拒绝停止杀戮。可悲的是，大量的现代塞尔维亚人拒绝承认他们的国家一开始就在杀人。
Adrian-Lucian
Destroying the military of a country attempting to commit such a crime is, in my personal opinion, morally legitimate. Killing 500 to perhaps 1200 civilians in inconclusive bombardements of dubious purpose isn't.
在我个人看来，摧毁一个企图犯下这种罪行的国家的军队在道德上是合法的。
但在毫无结果且目的不明的轰炸中杀死500到1200名平民不是。
gold_jerry_gold_
Serbia trying to straddle both sides. See how that works out for them.
And fuck Hungary, they can can piss off out of the EU.
塞尔维亚试图脚踏两只船，看看这对他们有什么好处。
以及去该死的匈牙利，他们可以滚出欧盟了。
WhiskeyTigerFoxtrot
It's a tough position they're in. Politically, economically, and militarily, Europe is the only logical option for alignment.
Culturally, religiously, and ethnically, Russia will be intertwined for quite a while. So what part of the human psyche wins? The pragmatic and logical side, or the emotional side that has been built up over hundreds of years?
他们的处境很艰难。在政治、经济和军事上，欧洲是结盟的唯一合理选择。
在文化、宗教和民族方面，俄罗斯将在相当一段时间内纠结缠绕。
人类心理的哪一部分获胜了?是务实和逻辑的一面，还是几百年来积累起来的情感的一面?
tagehring
Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, and Austria should all be neutral in the first map. On the second I would also suggest adding a light shade of blue to differentiate between NATO members and countries like Finland and Sweden who exercise with them and whose militaries are up to NATO standards.
芬兰、瑞典、瑞士和奥地利在第一张地图上应该是中立的。而第二张图，我还建议增加一种浅蓝色，以区分北约成员国和像芬兰和瑞典这样的和他们一起演习，且他们的军队符合北约标准的的国家。
anschelsc
Yeah, if "communist but non aligned" is its own category then "capitalist but non aligned" should be as well
是的，如果“共产主义但不结盟”可以归一类的话，那么“资本主义但不结盟”也应该可以。
JustYeeHaa
As a Pole I’m really glad to be on the other side of the curtain this time around, although having the curtain itself on our border isn’t ideal...
作为一名波兰人，我真的很高兴这次站在帷幕的另一边，尽管在我们的边界上设置帷幕本身并不理想……
Theghistorian
Same here, for a Romanian. Being on the good side of the curtain is great. Hope we can keep it like this.
I really wish that Ukraine will win the war and get herself aligned with the west because we will no longer have Russia as our neighbor. Not having Russia near you is a healthy thing
我也是，罗马尼亚人。站在帷幕好的一边感觉真的很好，希望我们能一直这样。
我真的希望乌克兰能赢得这场战争，并与西方结盟，因为我们将不再有俄罗斯作为我们的邻居。俄罗斯不在身边是件好事。
RoyalSeraph
Not having Russia near you is a healthy thing
I'm Israeli and oddly enough I can confirm. The main reason we didn't send military aid to Ukraine yet is that Russia has HUGE forces on our own backyard and we're the bottom of every Russian provoking against the Americans in the region. Yet, pardon my language, Syria is so heavily fucked that having the Russians there is somehow still better than most realistic alternatives. Sigh.
Oh, and glad to have you on this side of the curtain now. Both you and the Poles. You peeps are cool
我是以色列人，奇怪的是我能证实。我们没有向乌克兰提供军事援助的主要原因是，俄罗斯在我们的后院有庞大的军队，我们是该地区所有俄罗斯人挑衅美国人的最底层。
然而，请原谅我的说辞，叙利亚是如此得糟糕，让俄罗斯人在那里仍然比大多数现实的替代方案更好。叹息。
哦，很高兴你现在站在这一边。你和波兰人都是。你们这些家伙真酷。
Theghistorian
Yup. Russia tried to extend its influence in many places. Hope that you guys can get a break in the region. You deserve a peaceful life there. Israel, in my opinion, with all the problems that there are, it is one of the few good examples from the middle east.
是的。俄罗斯试图在许多地方扩大其影响力。希望你们能在这个地区有所突破。你应该在那里过平静的生活。在我看来，以色列尽管存在种种问题，但它是中东地区为数不多的几个好例子之一。
L4z
having the curtain itself on our border isn’t ideal...
Finland: "First time?"
Jokes aside, glad to have you and others on the better side of the curtain. Hopefully Belarus manages to escape too.
“尽管在我们的边界上设置帷幕本身并不理想……“
芬兰:“你才第一次?”
不开玩笑了，很高兴你和其他人能站在幕后。希望白俄罗斯也能成功逃脱。
MaverickMeerkatUK
Belarus is in the process of integrating into Russia proper. You can essentially treat Belarus as Russia at this point
白俄罗斯正处于完全融入俄罗斯的过程中。在这一点上，你基本上可以把白俄罗斯当作俄罗斯。
L4z
Lukashenka's position isn't as secure as Putin's. If this war goes very badly for Russia, we might see an uprising in Belarus.
卢卡申科的地位不像普京那样稳固。如果这场战争对俄罗斯不利，我们可能会在白俄罗斯看到起义。
Leadbaptist
Russian troops will put down any Belarus revolt, just like Hungary in the 50s
俄罗斯军队会镇压任何白俄罗斯的叛乱，就像50年代的匈牙利一样。
Lord_TachankaCro
Wishful thinking, Putin will crush any revolt in Belarus
普京会镇压白俄罗斯任何叛乱的。
arstin
Given your membership in NATO and the display the Russian army has put on over the past month, you really only have to worry about nukes. And if Russia goes that route, being the first to go isn't necessarily a bad thing.
考虑到你是北约成员国，以及俄罗斯军队在过去一个月里的表现，你真的只需要担心核武器。如果俄罗斯走上了这条路，成了第一个不一定是坏事。
CozmicCoyote
Well, curtains do tend to be put on poles.
窗帘往往要挂在柱子上。（“柱子“与”波兰“是同一个单词）
MaverickMeerkatUK
Don't worry NATO has your back. There's a tonne of NATO forces specifically in Poland
别担心，北约会支持你们的。在波兰有成吨的北约部队。
kerhart2
Well geostrategically you are on the western side of the curtain, but politically Poland cold also be on the eastern side, together with Hungary I guess.
在地理上，你是在帷幕的西边，但在政治上，波兰也在东边，我猜还有匈牙利。
JustYeeHaa
There’s still a huge gap between us and Hungary even if it seems like our government would love to go the same path
我们和匈牙利之间仍然有巨大的差距，尽管我们的政府似乎很愿意走同样的道路。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
Why tho? There isn't any major political difference between the two this time. We all have freedom of speech but only some of the time, we all get to vote in elections that we think don't really matter. Your life wouldn't change, just some rich guy you've never met would be buying and selling oil futures with rubles instead of dollars. Who cares?
然而为什么?
这一次，两边（欧美和俄罗斯）之间没有任何重大的政治差异。我们都有言论自由，但只是在某些时候，我们都可以在我们认为不重要的选举中投票。
你的生活不会改变，只是某个你从未见过的有钱人在用卢布而不是美元买卖石油期货。谁在乎呢?
darkenthedoorway
You cannot see the advantages in a liberal system that allows the free flow of information to its citizens, and allows them to benefit from their creations that arise from it? You are missing a lot.
你看不到自由主义体系的好处吗?自由主义体系允许信息在公民间自由流动，并允许他们从由此产生的创造中受益。你错过了很多。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
I don't see how liberal democratic Russia is a threat to that. They don't do any more press censorship than Poland does, i.e., they do it a lot. But there's no alternative political system on the table right now! "Theoretically parliamentary democracies where the election system is actual captured by a small ultra-nationalist clique" describes all the players here Boo hoo, Poland/Russia is just like North Carolina now
我看不出自由民主的俄罗斯对这有什么威胁。他们并不比波兰进行更多的新闻审查，也就是说，波兰也审查了很多。但是现在没有其他的政治制度可以替代！
“理论上讲，议会民主的选举制度实际上是被一个小的极端民族主义派系所掌握”，这里的所有参与者都这样描述，波兰/俄罗斯现在就像北卡罗来纳州一样。
darkenthedoorway
I dont understand what you mean when you refer to russia as liberal and democratic, because it is not.
我不明白你说俄罗斯是自由和民主的意思，因为它不是。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
How so? They have elections, they have more freedom of speech and press than many of their neighbors- what standard are you using, and how many NATO countries meet the same standard?
Like, remember those stories of Soviets coming West and being shocked to the point of disbelief at the openness and choice? Yeah, Russian expats don't say that stuff anymore: https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/status/1510612753706332160?t=iGdsdP3LxPjama7Sro1W2g&s=09
他们有选举，他们比许多邻国有更多的言论和新闻自由——你们用的是什么标准，又有多少北约国家达到了相同的标准?
比如，还记得那些苏联人来到西方，对开放和选择感到震惊的故事吗?是的, 俄罗斯移民不再说那些话了:链接略
darkenthedoorway
Russia has zero press freedom or individual freedom of speech, or assembly. I dont think you know what you are talking about.
俄罗斯没有新闻自由、个人言论自由或集会自由。我想你不知道自己在说什么。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
That's obviously not true tho, since there are opposition parties, there are news outlets that endorse them, there are huge, well-planned street protests against the war happening this very second. Alexei Navalny stole half a million dollars trying to turn himself into a "political prisoner," and they still wouldn't lock him up until he violated his parole in live TV! The level of censorship is exactly comparable to the Polish government forbidding individuals from saying that Auschwitz was in Poland. Going off quantitative things the number of arrested protesters per capita or number of dissident media outlets shuttered, instead of just our feelings, we find that America was far MORE repressive of the George Floyd protests than Russia has been of anything during Putin's time in office. Does this make them a free and open society? Of course not. Does it make sense to describe them as more open and tolerant than the West, or the West more open and tolerant than them? Also no. Both are liberal, capitalist societies with an oligarchy, some press censorship, and a dominant-party political system that has no love for dissidents, but understands that treating too harshly is bad PR. Any suggestion that there's an ideological basis for the current system is naked chauvinism. And, as you'd expect, we are seeing roughly the same amount of chauvinism from both sides- "denazification," remember?
这显然不是真的，因为俄罗斯有反对党，有新闻媒体支持他们，有大规模的、精心策划的街头抗议，反对战争的抗议正在发生。
阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼(Alexei Navalny)为了把自己变成“政治犯”而偷了50万美元，但他们仍然不肯把他关起来，直到他在电视直播中违反了假释规定！审查的程度与波兰政府禁止个人谈论奥斯维辛集中营的程度相当。不仅仅是我们的感受，我们发现从数量上看，被逮捕的抗议者的人均数量或者持不同政见的媒体被关闭的数量，在普京执政期间，美国对乔治·弗洛伊德的抗议活动比俄罗斯对任何事情的镇压都要严厉得多。
这是否使他们成为一个自由开放的社会?当然没有。描述他们比西方更开放和宽容，或者西方比他们更开放和宽容，有意义吗?没有。这两个国家都是自由主义的资本主义社会，寡头政治，有一些新闻审查制度，以及一个不喜欢持不同政见者的占主导地位的政党政治体系，但它们明白，对待他人过于严厉在公关是糟糕的。
任何认为俄罗斯现行制度存在意识形态基础的说法都是赤裸裸的沙文主义。而且，正如你所预料的那样，我们看到双方的沙文主义程度大致相同——“去纳粹化”，还记得吗?
darkenthedoorway
Its all the same to you, suit yourself. I robustly disagree.
无所谓，随你便。我坚定地反对。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
Lol your disagreement may be firm, but robust it is not
哈哈，你的意见可能是确定的，但它不是坚定的。
原文地址：
It's just Russia and Belarus though, not really an iron curtain
然而只有俄罗斯和白俄罗斯，不是真正的铁幕。
MaterialCarrot
Rusty curtain.
生锈的帷幕。
EmperorThan
Does Pornhub even allow that?
P站上会有嘛？
NoWingedHussarsToday
Don't kink shame!
别为自己的性品味害羞嘛！
doctorctrl
What if kink shaming is my kink ?
如果他的性品味也是我的性品味呢？
NoWingedHussarsToday
I won't shame you for it.
我不会因你的而羞耻的。
tghjfhy
And then there's the small self governed area in Moldova. Can't think of it's name off the top of my head
摩尔多瓦还有一小片自治地区。我一时想不起它的名字。
esn111
Transnistria
德涅斯特河沿岸
tghjfhy
Thank you
谢谢
Connect-Speaker
They refer to themselves as Pridnestrovian Moldavian Republic, but Transnistria is easier to remember
他们称自己为普里德涅斯特罗摩尔多瓦共和国，但德涅斯特河沿岸更容易记住。
guido_lois
It’s shown in red if you zoom in a bit.
如果你放大点，它也是红色的。
tghjfhy
Yeah that's why I mentioned it
是啊，这就是为何我提到它。
WinstonSEightyFour
But… the name is there, you didn’t need to think of it off the top of your head.
但是……图上有名字啊，你没必要自己去想。
tghjfhy
Do you not realize some of us are stupid
难道你没意识到我们有些人很蠢嘛？
WinstonSEightyFour
/笑哭
an_undecided_voter
And Hungary
匈牙利也算在铁幕里。
Harsimaja
Orban has strong disagreements with the rest of the EU and isn’t being as helpful over Ukraine… but Hungary is literally in both NATO and the EU. And definitely prefers its Visegrád mates over Russia…
欧尔班（匈牙利总理）与欧盟其他国家存在强烈分歧，在乌克兰问题上也没有什么帮助，但匈牙利实际上是北约和欧盟成员国。
而且绝对比俄罗斯更喜欢它的维谢格拉德集团的伙伴（成立于1991年，包括波兰、匈牙利、杰克和斯洛伐克，亦称V4）
videki_man
with the rest of the EU and isn’t being as helpful over Ukraine…
As much as I hate Orban (him being the sole reason I left my country), we took half a million Ukrainian refugees and the government condemned the Russian invasion and signed all EU sanctions.
尽管我讨厌欧尔班(他是我离开祖国的唯一原因)，但我们接纳了50万乌克兰难民，并谴责俄罗斯的入侵，并签署了所有欧盟制裁。
Aneke1
About 2 weeks ago Russia specifically named Hungary among some other countries and said that they "have plans" against us.
I can confirm that no one here is pro russian anymore, though many continue to not be pro Ukraine. They say it's not our fight, so we should stay out of it.
大约两周前，俄罗斯特别提到匈牙利和其他一些国家，并说他们有对抗我们的“计划”。
我可以确认，这里已经没有人亲俄罗斯了，尽管很多人仍然不亲乌克兰。他们说这不关我们的事，所以我们不应该插手。
Ironfist85hu
Those "no-ones" just got 135+1+7 places in a 199+1 slot parliament.
你所谓的“没人”指的是200个议会席位中有143个都站在俄罗斯一边。/笑
jothamvw
Wait, 143 out of practically 199? That's almost a supermajority. Awful.
I really shouldn't be going on holidays to countries where there's a major election happening days before I arrive.
I was on the boat to Newcastle when the 2017 UK election results came in, the Grenfell tower fire happened while I was in the UK, and now the Hungarian election results on the day before I get on my train to Budapest...
等等，199中有143个席位？那几乎是绝对多数。糟糕。
我真的不应该去那些在我抵达前几天就有重大选举的国家度假。
2017年英国大选结果出来的时候，我在去纽卡斯尔的船上，格伦费尔塔发生了火灾，现在在我坐火车去布达佩斯的前一天，匈牙利选举结果又出来了……
Tryoxin
135+1+7 places in a 199+1 slot parliament
Well colour me confused and intrigued. Why +1+7/+1? Why is it not just 143/200? Are those +Xs special permanent seats or something?
让我感到困惑和好奇。为什么要+1、+7？为什么不是143、200?
这些是特别席位还是什么？
blue-footed_buffalo
Parliamentary systems usually have a coalition of parties forming the ruling government. In this case Mi Hazank (“My Our Homeland”, an extreme far right party) picked up seven seats. Since they’re part of the coalition they can generally be counted on to vote with Fidesz, but not all the time. So, if a bill is voted on by party line, it’s 135 Fidesz votes + 7 Mi Hazank votes + whoever that last vote is.
议会制通常由政党联盟组成执政政府。在这种情况下，米哈扎克(Mi Hazank意为“我们的祖国”，一个极右翼政党)获得了7个席位。由于他们是联合政府的一部分，他们通常可以被指望与青民盟（FIdesz）一起投票，但并非总是如此。所以，如果一项法案是根据党派路线进行投票的，它是135票+ 7张米哈扎克票+最后不知道哪个的1票。
down_up__left_right
We'll see what happens now that the election is over.
"We will remember this victory until the end of our lives because we had to fight against a huge amount of opponents," Orban said, citing a number of his political enemies including the Hungarian left, "bureaucrats" in Brussels, the international media, "and the Ukrainian president too -- we never had so many opponents at the same time."
Russian President Vladimir Putin congratulated Hungarian Prime Minister Viktor Orban on Monday after his party won a fourth term in office and said he hoped to further build ties, the Kremlin said.
"The head of the Russian state expressed confidence that, despite the difficult international situation, the further development of bilateral ties of partnership fully meets the interests of the peoples of Russia and Hungary," the Kremlin said in a statement.
现在选举结束了，我们就等着瞧吧。
欧尔班说:“我们将铭记这场胜利，直到生命的尽头，因为我们必须与大量的对手战斗。”他列举了他的一些政敌，包括匈牙利左派、布鲁塞尔的“官僚”、国际媒体，“还有乌克兰总统——我们从来没有在同一时间有这么多对手。”
克里姆林宫称，俄罗斯总统普京周一祝贺匈牙利总理欧尔班，并表示他希望进一步加强与匈牙利的关系。“
俄罗斯国家元首表示，尽管国际形势艰难，但进一步发展双边伙伴关系完全符合俄罗斯和匈牙利人民的利益，” 克里姆林宫在一份声明中说。
Cautious_Hornet_9607
Serbia and Hungary seem headed in that direction though, judging from their elections.
从他们的选举来看，塞尔维亚和匈牙利似乎正朝着这个方向前进。
Comment dexed by user
realnrh
I've seen a number of pictures of Putin T-shirts and Z logos for sale in Serbia, and a lot of articles noting that significant percentages of Serbians continue to insist that Serbians were not involved in any of the massacres and war crimes. Nationalist deliberate misinformation will keep generations convinced that the bombings were unjustified.
我看到许多普京T恤和Z标志的图片在塞尔维亚出售，许多文章指出，相当大比例的塞尔维亚人继续坚持塞尔维亚人没有参与任何屠杀和战争罪行。
民族主义者故意制造的错误信息会让几代人相信，轰炸是不公正的。
reluctantfrench
Any nation lacking freedom of media is at risk of becoming a Russian puppet state just like Belarus.
任何缺乏媒体自由的国家都有可能成为俄罗斯的傀儡国，就像白俄罗斯一样。
onlyuros
You think your media is free? Only western media tells the truth? Youre a joke
你认为你的媒体是自由的?只有西方媒体说真相?
你是一个笑话。
Taavi00
There is no such thing as "Western media". There is independent media and state-controlled media. The vast majority of "Western" countries do not have government control over media outlets. This doesn't mean there is one single narrative in all Western media outlets. Which in turn means that you get a much more accurate picture following the media in Estonia, Germany or the US than Russia or China.
根本就没有所谓的“西方媒体”，有的是独立媒体和国家控制的媒体。绝大多数“西方”国家没有政府控制的媒体。
这并不意味着所有西方媒体都是一种单一的叙事方式。这反过来也意味着，与俄罗斯或中国相比，你可以从爱沙尼亚、德国或美国的媒体得到更准确的信息。
onlyuros
I don’t agree, the “more accurate picture” coming from US is in my opinion the most distorted one. The fact its not owned per say by the state does not mean its not controlled by it in one way or another.
我不同意，在我看来，来自美国的“更准确的描述”是最扭曲的。
事实上，它不属于国家所有，并不意味着它不受国家某种方式的控制。
Taavi00
Judging from you're post history you come from Serbia, a very friendly state to Russia. So your viewpoint isn't exactly neutral in this matter.
Of course media is controlled by someone, it's a business after all, a business run by people. But different media outlets often have different coverage and they target different audiences. The coverage of the war in Ukraine by Fox News is vastly different than that of the CNN. There is no such thing as a unified Western viewpoint.
从你的评论历史来看，你来自塞尔维亚，一个对俄罗斯非常友好的国家。所以你对这件事的看法并不是完全中立的。
当然，媒体是被人控制的，毕竟这是一门生意，一门由人经营的生意。但不同的媒体通常有不同的报道，他们针对不同的受众。福克斯新闻对乌克兰战争的报道与CNN截然不同。这里没有统一的西方观点。
onlyuros
Different in what way? Does Fox say Russia is right? Nato is getting too close and arming countries next to Russia?
I believe they are just two sides of the same coin, Fox existing just to be laughed at when a different narrative is presented.
哪门子的不同？福克斯说俄罗斯是对的吗?北约走得太近了，没有向俄罗斯旁边的国家提供武器?
我相信他们只是一个硬币的两面，福克斯的存在只是为了当一个不同的故事被呈现时被嘲笑。
Taavi00
All NATO members voluntarily joined the unx because they decided to do so as sovereign countries. Since Russia is the biggest threat to the indpendence of countries in Eastern Europe, it makes perfect sense for NATO to defend its members by providing some assistance in builing defensive capabilities. NATO itself poses no direct threat to the territorial integrity of Russia or to its people. There is no country in NATO that would want to invade the shithole called Russia. The only real threat to Russia's integrity is perhaps China.
When it comes to Ukraine, there are only facts here. Ukraine is a sovereign country which Russia invaded. There is no legal case in international law where Russia's action could be considered justified. BTW, when Ukraine gave nuclear weapons to Russia in early 90s it did so with the promise of territorial integrity. Russia obviously doesn't give a shit about such promises.
Therefore, any independent media outlet would reach the same conclusion.
所有北约成员国都是自愿加入的，因为他们决定以主权国家的身份加入。由于俄罗斯是对东欧国家独立的最大威胁，北约通过帮助其成员国建立防御能力来保护其成员国是完全合理的。
北约本身并没有对俄罗斯的领土完整或其人民构成直接威胁。北约中没有哪个国家会想要入侵这个叫俄罗斯的粪坑。唯一真正威胁俄罗斯领土完整的可能是……
说到乌克兰，这里只有事实。乌克兰是被俄罗斯入侵的主权国家。在国际法中，没有任何法律案例可以证明俄罗斯的行动是正当的。顺便说一下，当乌克兰在90年代初向俄罗斯提供核武器时，它是在承诺领土完整的情况下这么做的。俄罗斯显然对这些承诺不屑一顾。
因此，任何独立的媒体都会得出同样的结论。
Adrian-Lucian
The bombings weren't justified, they were war crimes like the Serbian and Albanian ones.
这些轰炸是不正当的，它们是战争罪行，就像塞尔维亚和阿尔巴尼亚人的一样。
Prosthemadera
This is seriously oversimplifying the situation.
But then, oversimplifying is part of the reason why people killed each other, isn't it?
这严重地将情况简单化了。
不过，过度简化也是人们自相残杀的原因之一，不是吗?
jpbus1
Yep. NATO bombed Serbia for two months straight, destroyed the chinese embassy in Belgrade and even dropped depleted uranium on Kosovo. Can't fight war crimes by comitting more war crimes
是的。北约连续两个月轰炸塞尔维亚，摧毁了中国驻贝尔格莱德大使馆，甚至在科索沃投放贫化铀。
你不能通过犯下更多的战争罪行来打击战争罪行。
Darda_FTW
They safed 2 million peoples lifes. As such, they were clearly justified.
他们保护了200万人的生命。因此，他们显然是有道理的。
realnrh
So attacking a country that is attempting a genocide is not justified? Serbia was murdering people and refused to stop. A sadly large number of modern day Serbs refuse to admit that their country was murdering people in the first place.
所以攻击一个试图进行种族灭绝的国家是不正当的?塞尔维亚正在屠杀人民，并拒绝停止杀戮。可悲的是，大量的现代塞尔维亚人拒绝承认他们的国家一开始就在杀人。
Adrian-Lucian
Destroying the military of a country attempting to commit such a crime is, in my personal opinion, morally legitimate. Killing 500 to perhaps 1200 civilians in inconclusive bombardements of dubious purpose isn't.
在我个人看来，摧毁一个企图犯下这种罪行的国家的军队在道德上是合法的。
但在毫无结果且目的不明的轰炸中杀死500到1200名平民不是。
gold_jerry_gold_
Serbia trying to straddle both sides. See how that works out for them.
And fuck Hungary, they can can piss off out of the EU.
塞尔维亚试图脚踏两只船，看看这对他们有什么好处。
以及去该死的匈牙利，他们可以滚出欧盟了。
WhiskeyTigerFoxtrot
It's a tough position they're in. Politically, economically, and militarily, Europe is the only logical option for alignment.
Culturally, religiously, and ethnically, Russia will be intertwined for quite a while. So what part of the human psyche wins? The pragmatic and logical side, or the emotional side that has been built up over hundreds of years?
他们的处境很艰难。在政治、经济和军事上，欧洲是结盟的唯一合理选择。
在文化、宗教和民族方面，俄罗斯将在相当一段时间内纠结缠绕。
人类心理的哪一部分获胜了?是务实和逻辑的一面，还是几百年来积累起来的情感的一面?
tagehring
Finland, Sweden, Switzerland, and Austria should all be neutral in the first map. On the second I would also suggest adding a light shade of blue to differentiate between NATO members and countries like Finland and Sweden who exercise with them and whose militaries are up to NATO standards.
芬兰、瑞典、瑞士和奥地利在第一张地图上应该是中立的。而第二张图，我还建议增加一种浅蓝色，以区分北约成员国和像芬兰和瑞典这样的和他们一起演习，且他们的军队符合北约标准的的国家。
anschelsc
Yeah, if "communist but non aligned" is its own category then "capitalist but non aligned" should be as well
是的，如果“共产主义但不结盟”可以归一类的话，那么“资本主义但不结盟”也应该可以。
JustYeeHaa
As a Pole I’m really glad to be on the other side of the curtain this time around, although having the curtain itself on our border isn’t ideal...
作为一名波兰人，我真的很高兴这次站在帷幕的另一边，尽管在我们的边界上设置帷幕本身并不理想……
Theghistorian
Same here, for a Romanian. Being on the good side of the curtain is great. Hope we can keep it like this.
I really wish that Ukraine will win the war and get herself aligned with the west because we will no longer have Russia as our neighbor. Not having Russia near you is a healthy thing
我也是，罗马尼亚人。站在帷幕好的一边感觉真的很好，希望我们能一直这样。
我真的希望乌克兰能赢得这场战争，并与西方结盟，因为我们将不再有俄罗斯作为我们的邻居。俄罗斯不在身边是件好事。
RoyalSeraph
Not having Russia near you is a healthy thing
I'm Israeli and oddly enough I can confirm. The main reason we didn't send military aid to Ukraine yet is that Russia has HUGE forces on our own backyard and we're the bottom of every Russian provoking against the Americans in the region. Yet, pardon my language, Syria is so heavily fucked that having the Russians there is somehow still better than most realistic alternatives. Sigh.
Oh, and glad to have you on this side of the curtain now. Both you and the Poles. You peeps are cool
我是以色列人，奇怪的是我能证实。我们没有向乌克兰提供军事援助的主要原因是，俄罗斯在我们的后院有庞大的军队，我们是该地区所有俄罗斯人挑衅美国人的最底层。
然而，请原谅我的说辞，叙利亚是如此得糟糕，让俄罗斯人在那里仍然比大多数现实的替代方案更好。叹息。
哦，很高兴你现在站在这一边。你和波兰人都是。你们这些家伙真酷。
Theghistorian
Yup. Russia tried to extend its influence in many places. Hope that you guys can get a break in the region. You deserve a peaceful life there. Israel, in my opinion, with all the problems that there are, it is one of the few good examples from the middle east.
是的。俄罗斯试图在许多地方扩大其影响力。希望你们能在这个地区有所突破。你应该在那里过平静的生活。在我看来，以色列尽管存在种种问题，但它是中东地区为数不多的几个好例子之一。
L4z
having the curtain itself on our border isn’t ideal...
Finland: "First time?"
Jokes aside, glad to have you and others on the better side of the curtain. Hopefully Belarus manages to escape too.
“尽管在我们的边界上设置帷幕本身并不理想……“
芬兰:“你才第一次?”
不开玩笑了，很高兴你和其他人能站在幕后。希望白俄罗斯也能成功逃脱。
MaverickMeerkatUK
Belarus is in the process of integrating into Russia proper. You can essentially treat Belarus as Russia at this point
白俄罗斯正处于完全融入俄罗斯的过程中。在这一点上，你基本上可以把白俄罗斯当作俄罗斯。
L4z
Lukashenka's position isn't as secure as Putin's. If this war goes very badly for Russia, we might see an uprising in Belarus.
卢卡申科的地位不像普京那样稳固。如果这场战争对俄罗斯不利，我们可能会在白俄罗斯看到起义。
Leadbaptist
Russian troops will put down any Belarus revolt, just like Hungary in the 50s
俄罗斯军队会镇压任何白俄罗斯的叛乱，就像50年代的匈牙利一样。
Lord_TachankaCro
Wishful thinking, Putin will crush any revolt in Belarus
普京会镇压白俄罗斯任何叛乱的。
arstin
Given your membership in NATO and the display the Russian army has put on over the past month, you really only have to worry about nukes. And if Russia goes that route, being the first to go isn't necessarily a bad thing.
考虑到你是北约成员国，以及俄罗斯军队在过去一个月里的表现，你真的只需要担心核武器。如果俄罗斯走上了这条路，成了第一个不一定是坏事。
CozmicCoyote
Well, curtains do tend to be put on poles.
窗帘往往要挂在柱子上。（“柱子“与”波兰“是同一个单词）
MaverickMeerkatUK
Don't worry NATO has your back. There's a tonne of NATO forces specifically in Poland
别担心，北约会支持你们的。在波兰有成吨的北约部队。
kerhart2
Well geostrategically you are on the western side of the curtain, but politically Poland cold also be on the eastern side, together with Hungary I guess.
在地理上，你是在帷幕的西边，但在政治上，波兰也在东边，我猜还有匈牙利。
JustYeeHaa
There’s still a huge gap between us and Hungary even if it seems like our government would love to go the same path
我们和匈牙利之间仍然有巨大的差距，尽管我们的政府似乎很愿意走同样的道路。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
Why tho? There isn't any major political difference between the two this time. We all have freedom of speech but only some of the time, we all get to vote in elections that we think don't really matter. Your life wouldn't change, just some rich guy you've never met would be buying and selling oil futures with rubles instead of dollars. Who cares?
然而为什么?
这一次，两边（欧美和俄罗斯）之间没有任何重大的政治差异。我们都有言论自由，但只是在某些时候，我们都可以在我们认为不重要的选举中投票。
你的生活不会改变，只是某个你从未见过的有钱人在用卢布而不是美元买卖石油期货。谁在乎呢?
darkenthedoorway
You cannot see the advantages in a liberal system that allows the free flow of information to its citizens, and allows them to benefit from their creations that arise from it? You are missing a lot.
你看不到自由主义体系的好处吗?自由主义体系允许信息在公民间自由流动，并允许他们从由此产生的创造中受益。你错过了很多。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
I don't see how liberal democratic Russia is a threat to that. They don't do any more press censorship than Poland does, i.e., they do it a lot. But there's no alternative political system on the table right now! "Theoretically parliamentary democracies where the election system is actual captured by a small ultra-nationalist clique" describes all the players here Boo hoo, Poland/Russia is just like North Carolina now
我看不出自由民主的俄罗斯对这有什么威胁。他们并不比波兰进行更多的新闻审查，也就是说，波兰也审查了很多。但是现在没有其他的政治制度可以替代！
“理论上讲，议会民主的选举制度实际上是被一个小的极端民族主义派系所掌握”，这里的所有参与者都这样描述，波兰/俄罗斯现在就像北卡罗来纳州一样。
darkenthedoorway
I dont understand what you mean when you refer to russia as liberal and democratic, because it is not.
我不明白你说俄罗斯是自由和民主的意思，因为它不是。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
How so? They have elections, they have more freedom of speech and press than many of their neighbors- what standard are you using, and how many NATO countries meet the same standard?
Like, remember those stories of Soviets coming West and being shocked to the point of disbelief at the openness and choice? Yeah, Russian expats don't say that stuff anymore: https://twitter.com/leonidragozin/status/1510612753706332160?t=iGdsdP3LxPjama7Sro1W2g&s=09
他们有选举，他们比许多邻国有更多的言论和新闻自由——你们用的是什么标准，又有多少北约国家达到了相同的标准?
比如，还记得那些苏联人来到西方，对开放和选择感到震惊的故事吗?是的, 俄罗斯移民不再说那些话了:链接略
darkenthedoorway
Russia has zero press freedom or individual freedom of speech, or assembly. I dont think you know what you are talking about.
俄罗斯没有新闻自由、个人言论自由或集会自由。我想你不知道自己在说什么。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
That's obviously not true tho, since there are opposition parties, there are news outlets that endorse them, there are huge, well-planned street protests against the war happening this very second. Alexei Navalny stole half a million dollars trying to turn himself into a "political prisoner," and they still wouldn't lock him up until he violated his parole in live TV! The level of censorship is exactly comparable to the Polish government forbidding individuals from saying that Auschwitz was in Poland. Going off quantitative things the number of arrested protesters per capita or number of dissident media outlets shuttered, instead of just our feelings, we find that America was far MORE repressive of the George Floyd protests than Russia has been of anything during Putin's time in office. Does this make them a free and open society? Of course not. Does it make sense to describe them as more open and tolerant than the West, or the West more open and tolerant than them? Also no. Both are liberal, capitalist societies with an oligarchy, some press censorship, and a dominant-party political system that has no love for dissidents, but understands that treating too harshly is bad PR. Any suggestion that there's an ideological basis for the current system is naked chauvinism. And, as you'd expect, we are seeing roughly the same amount of chauvinism from both sides- "denazification," remember?
这显然不是真的，因为俄罗斯有反对党，有新闻媒体支持他们，有大规模的、精心策划的街头抗议，反对战争的抗议正在发生。
阿列克谢·纳瓦尔尼(Alexei Navalny)为了把自己变成“政治犯”而偷了50万美元，但他们仍然不肯把他关起来，直到他在电视直播中违反了假释规定！审查的程度与波兰政府禁止个人谈论奥斯维辛集中营的程度相当。不仅仅是我们的感受，我们发现从数量上看，被逮捕的抗议者的人均数量或者持不同政见的媒体被关闭的数量，在普京执政期间，美国对乔治·弗洛伊德的抗议活动比俄罗斯对任何事情的镇压都要严厉得多。
这是否使他们成为一个自由开放的社会?当然没有。描述他们比西方更开放和宽容，或者西方比他们更开放和宽容，有意义吗?没有。这两个国家都是自由主义的资本主义社会，寡头政治，有一些新闻审查制度，以及一个不喜欢持不同政见者的占主导地位的政党政治体系，但它们明白，对待他人过于严厉在公关是糟糕的。
任何认为俄罗斯现行制度存在意识形态基础的说法都是赤裸裸的沙文主义。而且，正如你所预料的那样，我们看到双方的沙文主义程度大致相同——“去纳粹化”，还记得吗?
darkenthedoorway
Its all the same to you, suit yourself. I robustly disagree.
无所谓，随你便。我坚定地反对。
Sr_Carlos_Danger
Lol your disagreement may be firm, but robust it is not
哈哈，你的意见可能是确定的，但它不是坚定的。
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